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#1 Posted : Tuesday, March 02, 2010 12:12:52 PM(UTC)
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What is the percentage of a man's salary that must go for maintenace, and is it possible that a child in grade one cost over R4000 a month?
Gary - Fathers 4 Justice
#2 Posted : Tuesday, March 02, 2010 12:55:07 PM(UTC)
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First off maintenance is not a quick get rich scheme. Both parents are equally, jointly and severable liable for maintenance.
First – determine the actual /true / real costs to maintain your child. Back it up with a minimum of 6 months of bank statements and till slips.
We will assume that the cost is R 4000.00
You then take Mom and Dad’s salary – you are both legally entitled to have sight of both income and expenditure – declared and undeclared. If you believe that the one partner is not being forthcoming with all the information then you may approach your local maintenance court to do an thorough investigation.
Example one Mom earns R 5000.00 per month Dad earns R 5000.00
You would then both be jointly severable liable to pay of the maintenance which is R 2000.00 each
Example Two Mom earns R 6000.00 Dad earns R 4000.00 per month. There is a 60/40 split – mom then would be obliged to pay R 2400.00 per month and Dad would be responsible to pay R 1600.00 per month
Things like extra mural activities can be shared - we would that each parent pay for one extra mural activity, or split either half or pro rata for one extra mural activity.
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#3 Posted : Tuesday, March 02, 2010 4:14:27 PM(UTC)
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I think the basis on which the cost is divided based on who earns more is crap!

I feel that people need to go back to basics and stop living above their means - If YOU, cannot afford it - dont expect your ex to . There are families made up of 3 / 4 people who live off Less than R4000 a month - and on these forums there are claims for maint. that are R10 000 - I've seen even higher prices - what the hell, these are children!

Gary - Fathers 4 Justice
#4 Posted : Tuesday, March 02, 2010 4:52:03 PM(UTC)
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I belive I was VERY clear in that you need to back up your claims for maintenance and I quote [i]"First – determine the actual /true / real costs to maintain your child. Back it up with a minimum of 6 months of bank statements and till slips."[/i]
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#5 Posted : Tuesday, March 02, 2010 5:18:58 PM(UTC)
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@ Gary - I was just commenting / venting - wasn't replying to your response.
Im just in total shock at how some people operate

But yeah, I hear you - I just think that what people expect from their ex's is mind blowing .
Gary - Fathers 4 Justice
#6 Posted : Tuesday, March 02, 2010 5:40:36 PM(UTC)
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@ Posted: 02 March 2010 03:18:58 PM
I hear you - Unfortunately, all too often maintenance for children is viewed as another source of income to be incorrectly spent on everything else except the children.
Guest
#7 Posted : Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:40:44 AM(UTC)
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HEAR HEAR!

You got THAT 100% right, Gary!
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#8 Posted : Monday, March 08, 2010 12:43:22 PM(UTC)
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What happens if you were never married and the mother does not work but applies for maintenance????? how is it calculated then
Gary - FAthers 4 Justice
#9 Posted : Tuesday, March 09, 2010 7:02:18 AM(UTC)
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You would be responsible for the full maintenance of the child untill such time that mom gets a job.

Reading your question I get the feeling that you do not know your rights so.....

In a nutshell.
•A child, male or female, becomes a major upon reaching 18.
•The biological mother of a child has full parental responsibility of the child, whether she’s married or not.
•The biological father of a child has full responsibility of the child if he’s married to the child’s mother or if he was married to the child’s mother at the time of conception, birth or any time between the child’s conception and birth.
•An unmarried, biological father may ask a court of law to grant him full parental responsibilities if;
1.At the time of the child’s birth, he is living with the mother in a permanent life partnership.
2.Or, if he consents to be identified as the child’s father.
3.Or, successfully applies to be identified as the child’s father.
4.Or, pays damages in terms of customary law.
5.Or, contributes or has tried to contribute to the child’s maintenance and upbringing for a reasonable period of time.


What if he won’t pay?
Importantly, the biological father is responsible for the payment of maintenance for the child, regardless of whether he chooses to apply for parental responsibilities or not.

If there is a dispute between the child’s parents about maintenance, the matter has to be dealt with by a family attorney, social worker, social services professional or other suitably qualified person. This applies regardless of whether the child was born before or after the commencement of the new Act.

What does this mean?
It doesn’t matter whether the parents are married and they conceive a child, or whether they marry after conception and before the birth of the child: they’re both equally responsible for that child. However, nothing has changed as regards to the law concerning minor children.

And if my child is illegitimate?
When a child’s parents are not married, the mother remains the primary caregiver of the child and the father can apply for rights if he complies with one of the requirements mentioned above. Again, the natural father of a child born of unmarried parents still has to pay maintenance for a child under 18 years of age, whether he wants to or not.

Outdated terminology.
Courts used words like “custody” and “access” when they referred to children’s rights. The terms which are now used are “care” and “contact”

What does the phrase “full parental responsibilities and rights “ mean?
•The responsibility and right to care for the child
•To maintain contact with the child.
•To act as guardian of the child.
•To contribute to the maintenance of the child.

Fathers have more rights now.
There are various other matters which a parent or guardian would have to administer, safeguard and consent to for the child. Under the old dispensation, where parties were divorced, one parent (usually the mother) would usually be awarded custody of a minor child and the other parent (usually the father) would be entitled to visitation rights.

The custodian parent would be vested with making all the day-to-day decisions of the minor child including which school the child would attend, what religion the child would practice, where the child would reside and so on.

This is no longer the case.
The parents have joint parental responsibilities and rights, and all major decisions relating to the minor child need to be taken by the parties jointly, which is afar healthier situation for the child. A parent is now no longer a “custodian” but may provide the “primary place of residence” for a minor child, and have the “care” of the child.

But he doesn’t want to pay …
Some women find themselves in situations where they are involved in relationships, fall pregnant out of wedlock and then discover that their partners want nothing to do with them. They choose to have the child and their partners attempt to avoid responsibility.

In situations like this the mother is entitled to approach the maintenance court for the area she lives in, to claim maintenance from the father of the child. The court will make an order for an appropriate amount. There are people at the court to assist the mother in completing the necessary documentation and serving the papers on the father to appear at court.

Once an order has been made for the payment of such maintenance, and the father fails to pay the maintenance, he could be sent to prison for failing to do so.

When the father of an illegitimate or even legitimate child is unable to pay maintenance for a child, the court may look to the grandparents of the minor child on the father’s side, to decide if they are capable of paying maintenance for that child. So let’s say there is a situation where, for example, the father of a minor child is killed in an accident, and there are paternal grandparents, who are financially able, the mother could ask the court to get the grandparents to give good reason why they should not be ordered to pay maintenance for the minor child.


For additional support go to FAthers 4 Justice website www.f4j.co.za
Guest
#10 Posted : Tuesday, March 23, 2010 11:34:14 AM(UTC)
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@Gary - one correction, according to s21 of the Children's Act, #5 in your list is an "and", not an "or" in relation to #2, 3 & 4.
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#12 Posted : Monday, August 16, 2010 4:27:49 PM(UTC)
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Hi Gary,

I have a situation where a woman trapped my fiance and fell pregnant, he is not working...and looking....the woman will be applying for maintenance, can they order that I pay the maintenance once we married since his not working? or would the 2nd option be his parents first then myself?
GaryFathers4Justice
#11 Posted : Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:00:30 AM(UTC)
GaryFathers4Justice

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Guest wrote:
@Gary - one correction, according to s21 of the Children's Act, #5 in your list is an "and", not an "or" in relation to #2, 3 & 4.


Ah No it is not - you only have to comply with one or more of the requirments, you do not have to comply with all of the requirments - to proove the point - I as a white male do not have to pay damages under customary law.
GaryFathers4Justice
#13 Posted : Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:03:27 AM(UTC)
GaryFathers4Justice

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Guest wrote:
Hi Gary,

I have a situation where a woman trapped my fiance and fell pregnant, he is not working...and looking....the woman will be applying for maintenance, can they order that I pay the maintenance once we married since his not working? or would the 2nd option be his parents first then myself?


This one would have to be handeled on the merrits of your individual case, you would be well advised to seek legal advice fast - you could protect yourself by marrying out of community of property.
suzi
#14 Posted : Tuesday, August 17, 2010 11:30:32 AM(UTC)
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hi guys,
i feel so sorry for the real people who suffers... so may bad mommy's and daddy's out there! thing is my little girl"s daddy is quite rich, where as i work for normal admin salary. because he's rich, he can afford any lawyer ... has a lot of influence in every place!! he pays his child support every month, but deducts money for anything he can think of. we had an agreement that he would pay for the medical aid and we would both pay 50% of extra medical costs. now he deducts 50% of medical aid off at the end of the month. when i asked him why?? he said "take me to court if you have the money" i paid for her daycare for 2 years, he refuses to give his part!!

just because he has money and i don't, can he just do anything?? it is after all our child that is suffering. she is very intelligent and loves going to school, but i cannot afford this anymore!!

good luck to all the good parents out there!! i have learned that love does make up for money!! if you cannot afford school, teach them yourself, if you cannot afford a pretty gift, hugs and kisses gives just as much pleasure... and if you look around you, you will realize that God is taking care of you!!
Guest
#16 Posted : Tuesday, August 17, 2010 12:43:22 PM(UTC)
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Hi Gary

I have been to court in my area and for 5 years , 3 garnishee orders later and 2 warrants to appear in court and never did - he is still not paying maintenance. He feels he doesnt need to pay due to settlement terms off half the house! i was told to take a bond and pay him, i wont do it as he has neva shown good faith in paying or visiting or calling his kids. he acts as if they don't exist and tells the kids, if and when he does call that i asked him not to contact them. im so frustrated and just gave up on the justice system! What can i do as he left his last job, im not sure where he works now and im not gonna force him to visit the kids, just to make them feel unwanted, my family and i give them the love that they need, he doesnt know what hes missing out on - fool!!!! Please help...

Thanks
Fedup with justice system...
Uninformed
#18 Posted : Tuesday, August 17, 2010 2:09:59 PM(UTC)
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Could you kindly advise.

My husband and I are married outside of community of property. He has a daughter from his previous marriage and is paying maintenance (whilst the mother is still acting unfarily when it comes to visiting times). My 1st question is, when his income & expenditure is reviewed when they appear in court, does my income & expenditure count too? What about his ex-wife's husband (if married in community of property). Or would it solely be the biological parents income & expenditure that will be reviewed?

Question 2: Would he be able to apply for reduction of maintenance and request that his contribution be reviewed (as agreed upon in the divorce settlement). He wants to include in the monthly school fees and medical aid cost in the total cash he contributes monthly and not seperately. Hope you understand what I'm asking. Basically will he be able to request a change of contribution from his side, although it was agreed upon in the divorce settlement or is what they agreed upon not able to be changed?
GaryFathers4Justice
#17 Posted : Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:22:19 PM(UTC)
GaryFathers4Justice

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Guest wrote:
Hi Gary

I have been to court in my area and for 5 years , 3 garnishee orders later and 2 warrants to appear in court and never did - he is still not paying maintenance. He feels he doesnt need to pay due to settlement terms off half the house! i was told to take a bond and pay him, i wont do it as he has neva shown good faith in paying or visiting or calling his kids. he acts as if they don't exist and tells the kids, if and when he does call that i asked him not to contact them. im so frustrated and just gave up on the justice system! What can i do as he left his last job, im not sure where he works now and im not gonna force him to visit the kids, just to make them feel unwanted, my family and i give them the love that they need, he doesnt know what hes missing out on - fool!!!! Please help...

Thanks
Fedup with justice system...


Dear Guest Posted: 17 August 2010 10:43:22 AM
If you have indeed NOT denied the children right of contact with their father I would call him on it. First off – I would demand a mandatory meeting with both his and your lawyer as well as the children present. In this meeting you will categorically state that you have never denied the father right of contact and access to the children and that it was his choice to not participate in your children’s life. The children can then ask their father out right and directly whether he wants to participate in their lives and more to the point whether they want him to participate in their lives.

What your ex is doing if it is as you allege that he says that you say the children cannot see them is child abuse.

The other solution that you could use is demanding mandatory mediation under section 33 – and if he fails to do this, then criminally prosecute him under section 35 for failing to mediate a workable solution. As you have already indicated he is already in breach of court orders – so whether this will work is open to debate. So, I am at a loss as to what advice I should give here. Unless the courts are actually going to start enforcing the children’s act (and all evidence currently is that they never will) – the other parent is going to be left in the lurch and at the mercy of the belligerent parent.

Unless this man is prepared to show up and taking his responsibility for his children there is pretty much nothing you or I for that matter can do.

Fathers 4 Justice is in the process of approaching the Law Reform Commission to put in far more punitive stringent rules for parents, service providers and the legal system with criminalised punitive retributive action behind them – which is where the current act falls far short off.

So my suggestion is that you move on – if your children require counselling to deal with the abandonment by their father then contact me via our website and I will point you in the right direction of people that can support and assist them.
You might also want to look into going through some release process – as you are also entailed to live your life.
If he is not prepared to met you with the lawyers present and he fails to mediate, I would just ad as caveat to thi
s that you send him a legal letter laying the way forward and that the children will no longer be made available to him to destroy.

Please document all correspondence to him and use a lawyer to send follow up correspondence – if the children are old and mature enough let them participate in this process. Use an independent psychologist to guide all of you in this process.

Best regards

Gary

F4J
Roestorf
#15 Posted : Friday, October 15, 2010 6:27:21 PM(UTC)
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Hi there

I feel your pain, and I walk with you on this one. They walk all over you, then they want the child and they want to settle for less. This is also true, I also have a rich kind of husband, and he wants to just throw me out on street and let me suffer, but at the end of the day, they do not realize that they are hurting the children as well, and then they think all you want is money money, but what they do not realize is that they cheated and messed up the marriage and now they want to make you feel guilty and worst of all these kind of men are just sickening to me. They need to take in consideration that you need to provide for your child, put a roof over her head, feed her, put clothes on her and pay for school and all the other things, and all they worry about is their lives and to satisfy their own needs (by messing around), that is so pathetic to me, I do not blame some woman for how they feel about their ex husbands. And they treat you you like shit....believe me I am busy with a divorce and I said to myself never again in my life will I endure what I did the past view years. And then you have to find out from someone at your work, why your husband left his previous employment, because of porn and that every one knows it, I sometimes wonder if his family know about all the shut he does, I don't think so....Good luck for you and be strong in life.


Roestorf

Guest wrote:
hi guys,
i feel so sorry for the real people who suffers... so may bad mommy's and daddy's out there! thing is my little girl"s daddy is quite rich, where as i work for normal admin salary. because he's rich, he can afford any lawyer ... has a lot of influence in every place!! he pays his child support every month, but deducts money for anything he can think of. we had an agreement that he would pay for the medical aid and we would both pay 50% of extra medical costs. now he deducts 50% of medical aid off at the end of the month. when i asked him why?? he said "take me to court if you have the money" i paid for her daycare for 2 years, he refuses to give his part!!

just because he has money and i don't, can he just do anything?? it is after all our child that is suffering. she is very intelligent and loves going to school, but i cannot afford this anymore!!

good luck to all the good parents out there!! i have learned that love does make up for money!! if you cannot afford school, teach them yourself, if you cannot afford a pretty gift, hugs and kisses gives just as much pleasure... and if you look around you, you will realize that God is taking care of you!!
Guest
#19 Posted : Monday, October 18, 2010 2:32:17 PM(UTC)
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Roestorf, it seems you have some (ok, a lot of) issues you still need to deal with.

The cause of a relationship failing is actually not the point, once the relationship is over. Once you've reached that point, all that matters is the children and their welfare.

So, for you to be harping on about "they cheated and messed up the marriage", "these kind of men are just sickening", "they treat you you like shit", and "if his family know about all the shut he does" just tells everybody you're not the high-minded dispassionate observer you try to pass yourself off as, but rather an embittered ex-wife (or soon to be, at any rate), who is more concerned with the causes of the breakdown and with making her ex PAY for it, than with the fact that as adults, the parents need to grow up, get over themselves, and start doing the very best they possibly can for their child(ren), regardless of their own hurt feelings and feelings of injustice.

Guest
#23 Posted : Wednesday, October 20, 2010 6:11:09 PM(UTC)
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Hi there
Need some advice, I have 3 boys aged 9, 6 and 4, their father does not work and has refused to pay maintenance even while he was working.. I feel as if the justice system has failed me. He has subsequently re married and his wife works. Both his parents are pensioners and he sees the kids every second weekend however, some weekends he conveniently makes them my responsibility... I'm so frustrated I don't know where to turn as it is tough dealing with the financial responsibility on my own. Can I sue his wife? and is there a law that can make him stick to his agreement? They are married by muslim law!
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