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Revive
#83 Posted : Monday, November 23, 2009 2:03:03 PM(UTC)
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Revive

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Firstly, let me say that this is not a debate thread. Its a thread to help me in what Im doing. If you are one of these ppl that think Im a wimp for wanting more time with my child, I feel so sorry for you and the future people you land up with. So sad to see how narrow minded people are.

For those that had the idea that Im doing this for time off....sigh...I can only offer a sincere face palm in response. What gave you that idea? Im working this hard to get a few extra days time off to use my paternity leave to play golf or something? Are you kidding...are you ppl for real? Thank for the good laugh.

Lastly...the reason why we are stuck with such poor paternity leave laws etc, and the stereotype that men arent interested in family etc seems like its because there are actually quite a few men who dont give a damn. Its clear by the responses. Again, I feel so sorry for you and I hope in time you will eventually open you eyes.

So...to sum up...if you can help etc, please reply. If you have nothing decent to say, start your own thread....because maybe then someone will actually care about what you have to say. I sure as hell dont :d/ You are wasting my time reading through your garbage...be a man and respect MY decision and take it elsewhere.. I love how ppl hide behind their computers and reply as they do...nice feeling having dem big Kahonies! Brick wall

rushdicpt wrote:
Please email me rushdicpt at gmail dot com with updates on your campaign.

my partner and i (both male) plan to adopt in 2011. one of us works for the state, the other for media24. i am yet to properly investigate media24's policy re paternity leave, but i've had unofficial answers varying from "a few days" to "a few weeks".

while the thought of leaving baby at home after "mom's" tradition 3-month leave is traumatic enough (poor mommy!), the thought of both my partner and i returning to work after "a few days" or "a few weeks" of paternity leave is heartbreaking enough for us to think that one of us will have to quit our jobs if "a few days" or "a few weeks" is all we can get from our employers.

this discimination between mommy and daddy is clearly unconstitutional and i've been hoping someone would take up the fight. thankyou for doing so, and please keep me updated so that i can add my name to your case if we need to go that far!

surely in the case of two daddies/ two mommies, the two employers can communicate with each other and the two daddies/ two mommies can decide which one is going to take the extended maternity leave given to new moms?


No problem, Im planning on taking my findings etc to the HR head end of Jan. I will let you know what comes of it. If anyone wants the resources/information I have gathered, drop me an email and I will be more than happy to share details and what I find. Best of luck to you!

Guest wrote:
I agree that 3 days is a bit short for when your baby is born, keeping in mind that your wife will also need you a day or so before she gives birth?? ( As far as I know, the 3 days have been changed to 5 in the begining of the the year)

That said, keep the following in mind:

On a yearly basis your employer pays you your 12 monthly salaries + your bonus (this is also debatable as in most companies these days this is a given and not a performance bonus), thus receiving 13 paychecks a year.

Then you receive 21 days annual leave, 3/5 days family responsabilty leave, 36 days sick leave per 3 year cycle ( in effect giving you 12 days per year).

This means that the employer has to pay the employee for (21 + 3 + 12) = 36 days for which he is not at work!! That is more than a month and half of workdays!! So from an employers perspective it would be ludacris to add another 2/3/4 weeks pertinity leave to an employees leave cycle and still receive a 13 cheque!

I believe the solution lies with the sick leave as I can not remember when last I have been away from work for more than 2 days. 12 days per year/ 36 per 3 month cycle is to much, so if you could have less sickleave and more FRL, this could resolve the problem??????


Thats actually a very good point! Im not sickly...and we get a lot of sick days leave. Maybe thats something I bring up with them too, thanks for this.

Guest wrote:
Revive I hope you succeed with this. My daughter was born premature last week. I only got 3 days. She's gonna be in ICU for another 3 weeks - and I only get to see her once each week day (after work) :( --I'm saving my annual leave for when she's home...


Thats not nice at all :( Best of luck to you!! I will be doing the same, using annual leave. We have no choice, hope she comes out soon.

Guest wrote:
I am all in favour of paternity leave AS LONG AS new dads don't use it as an excuse to park off at home and DO ACTUALLY help his wife with the baby. Sometimes having husbands at home is twice the amount of work as just having one little baby to look after eg What's with husbands staying at home on Women's Day?


Yeah, read all the replies here. Its so sad to see this kinda mentality here. People actually do this with their paternity leave....so sad.

Guest wrote:
ESKOM has 14 days contingency leave annually, which can be used for partenity duties. The very same 14 days contingency leave is also used for other serious stuff like death in the family or child sickness. If 4 days are already used for maybe child sickness, that means only 10 days will be available for that year. The trick is if one is expecting a child in a certain year, one has to plan around those 14 days by maybe utilising the 21 days compulsory annual leave days for other seriouss stuff. if not used, the 14 days are forfeited and a new 14 day balance credited.


You dont by any chance has this policy? Im still looking for an Eskom leave policy.

Guest wrote:
If your child birth is so important to you, why not sacrifice your annual leave, for this once in a lfe time event.


Posted about this earlier, I am doing this. Problem is, Dec comes and I have hardly any annual leave then left for 1st Christmas with our child. Not lekker.

Guest wrote:
THis is such an interesting topic!

why not research what the uk gives as well? i know for maternity leave in the uk it is even close to 9 months!!! south africa is in the stone ages when it comes to this kind of thing. very sad.

a dad needs to be there! i am a mommy but would have loved to have had my husband with me during my materinty leave. especially in the beginning...

i think both the maternity and paternity benefits in South africa are shoking and need to be revised....


Yeah, I had a look overseas....thats actually what helped spark my interest in this and why Im doing this. Its not the main reason...but after reading about overseas policies etc...it helped me decide to go ahead and do this.

manieverster wrote:
Revive and all the other new daddies/to be,
Who is giving birth to this child? You or your wife? You are just going to be in her way all the time. Or maybe not. Maybe you've got something else planned and just need a couple of days of! In my days there were no paternity leave. Anyway I couldn't wait to get to work in the morning to get away from dirty diaphers and bottles and that screaming! Wow, you dunno what you let yourself in for.


I love these "in my days" replies. So what, things dont change, technology doesnt progress, trends dont change? Cmon! Things now days are waaaaaay different to "your time". Fathers want to be a part of their lives etc. Doesnt seem to be the SA trend right now...think we still stuck in the stone ages...but thats the international trend. I did a lot of readying up on it before deciding to do this. Search on google...its a real eye opener!

Im doing this because I want to be involved, my wife would like my help and I feel its the right thing to do supporting my wife and child and showing how much they mean to me.

Got something else planned and take time off? No...as you can see...Im registered here and dont have the mentaility of the "guest" replies. You think Im doing all this work for a few days time off? You sir, are indeed stuck in "your days". This is your opinion...running away from diapers and bottles...please dont think Im like you.

Guest wrote:
Between the idiots trolling for arguments, the old-school chauvinists stuck in the 50’s and the hard-core moms who don’t need a man to do anything (except maybe pay the bills), I’m not surprised that this has turned into such a debate.

Allow me to point out a few things that seem to be commonly misunderstood:

1. Most fathers asking for more progressive policies on paternity leave don’t want this to play golf and watch sport at home at their employer’s expense. They want to get to know their new son or daughter and they want to help their wife (who may be bedridden after serious surgery).

2. Right now, in 2009, most mothers welcome this kind of involvement. This confirms that the family is a tight unit that does everything together and supports each other.

3. If you are a clock-watching worker that offers little more than your 9-5 of minimum input, then I can understand why your employer would be loathe to grant you paid time off. But some of us add real value at work.

4. The fact that the amount of paternity leave seems to be directly proportionate to the level of a country’s development says something about the direction we should be heading. Those who wish to remain in the old days are welcome to their opinions too, of course.

5. Men who aren’t (or don’t plan to become) fathers don’t belong in this debate.


Yeah...been a lot of narrow minded views here. Small minds...small thinking? Thanks for your input.

To those that send me mails with policies...think I got 2 this weekend, thank you for your effort. If you can help me out with my cause...please see my first mail and send me info and policies. I will be eternally gratefull :d/
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Guest
#84 Posted : Monday, November 23, 2009 3:51:40 PM(UTC)
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Crap bag!
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Guest
#85 Posted : Monday, November 23, 2009 6:06:52 PM(UTC)
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Hi, I have to add my 2-cents worth to this non-debate!, since this is a highly relevant topic to my husband and I at the moment. We are expecting our first.

I was pretty surprised to find out that his company followed the Labour Law guideline of 5 days total family responsibility leave, including funerals, sick child etc. I can understand that it is at each company's discretion as to how much extra they are willing to give, but my husband's company prides itself on being a leader in its industry (technology field), and on recruiting the cream of the crop. I would have imagined they could compare with the likes of ForwardSlash, which I know offers 2 weeks paternity leave, although also numerous other great benefits. His company is a one of mostly males in their 20's to 30's. a) They are not forking out much on maternity leave (few women), b) the general employee will not be having more than 2 kids in the time they're at the company, c) they supposedly value their human resources so highly, d) their general benefits are not exactly leading - nothing is offered in the way of year end bonus - I earn more than my husband once profit share is taken into account and I don't even have a post-grad degree, e) their growth has been phenomenal. Hence, this came as rather a disappointment that they don't recognise a new dad's need to be involved with his family through THE most life changing event, in the way of paternity benefits.

I just feel that it is up to the big companies to lead the way towards more progressive thinking and more relevant benefits that support better societal values. I'm glad we're not the only ones who think this country is behind the curve. It seriously shocks me that 3 days is it. What this country needs is more emphasis on and respect for family values. We can talk about back in the year dot, but we have a lot of negative things in society right now due to the breakdown in family structure and values from the previous generations. I am pleased to see how my generation are doing things differently - men being far more involved in family life, couples working more as a team in how they create their family life, and finding solutions to work around all the challenges we face, like most families needing both partners to work. Why we would want to keep things the same as in the past I have no idea!!

My husband has not taken a sick leave day ever as far as I am aware. I feel that at the very least men should be entitled to use some of their available sick leave for paternity leave.

Yes, babies primarily need the mom, and are not dependent on dad at first. But what about mom? We work right up until the time we give birth, birth itself is often traumatic, we're thrown into the task of being a new mom, we're often faced with things like post-partum depression, sleep deprivation, etc, without much of a support system, have to go back to work ASAP as the family needs the finances. It would just be nice to have hubby at home a while longer while we weather the changes together. There is a lot that a dad can do to help and make the transition a smooth one in the early days, and to get family life off to a great start.

I am convinced that the negative comments on this board are from those who have either never had, or don't intend to have children, or are kidding themselves that they had the best experience, and are kidding themselves about the state of their relationship.

If companies like my own can be generous in how much maternity leave they give, I just see it as unfair how men are expected to go back to work immediately, like nothing has changed, with no acknowledgement of their role. So much for gender equality and all that. Yes, he can take his annual leave, but annual leave as far as I'm concerned is leisure time for rest and recuperation, not for family responsibility. Yes, having a baby is our decision, not the company's, but when companies claim to be people centred etc, you would kinda expect that they would honour family life in meaningful ways like this. A couple of extra days in lieu of sick leave for an event that will not be repeated many times hardly seems like much to ask for. A healthy balanced life afterall leads to a happy productive employee.

We work so damn hard and add value to our companies. A little time to enjoy our new addition together would be a really appreciated perk.

Thank you for listening! Good luck Revive on your mission. My husband tried to raise the issue with his company, but failed. I hope you do better! I would love to see the big companies stepping up!

P.S. Oh and yes the policy in the US is equally appalling. Then again, I prefer not to look to the US for how to do things properly. Europe however stands up time and time again. Good for them for leading the way on paternity benefits.
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Revive
#86 Posted : Monday, November 23, 2009 6:18:28 PM(UTC)
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Revive

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Guest wrote:
Hi, I have to add my 2-cents worth to this non-debate!, since this is a highly relevant topic to my husband and I at the moment. We are expecting our first.

I was pretty surprised to find out that his company followed the Labour Law guideline of 5 days total family responsibility leave, including funerals, sick child etc. I can understand that it is at each company's discretion as to how much extra they are willing to give, but my husband's company prides itself on being a leader in its industry (technology field), and on recruiting the cream of the crop. I would have imagined they could compare with the likes of ForwardSlash, which I know offers 2 weeks paternity leave, although also numerous other great benefits. His company is a one of mostly males in their 20's to 30's. a) They are not forking out much on maternity leave (few women), b) the general employee will not be having more than 2 kids in the time they're at the company, c) they supposedly value their human resources so highly, d) their general benefits are not exactly leading - nothing is offered in the way of year end bonus - I earn more than my husband once profit share is taken into account and I don't even have a post-grad degree, e) their growth has been phenomenal. Hence, this came as rather a disappointment that they don't recognise a new dad's need to be involved with his family through THE most life changing event, in the way of paternity benefits.

I just feel that it is up to the big companies to lead the way towards more progressive thinking and more relevant benefits that support better societal values. I'm glad we're not the only ones who think this country is behind the curve. It seriously shocks me that 3 days is it. What this country needs is more emphasis on and respect for family values. We can talk about back in the year dot, but we have a lot of negative things in society right now due to the breakdown in family structure and values from the previous generations. I am pleased to see how my generation are doing things differently - men being far more involved in family life, couples working more as a team in how they create their family life, and finding solutions to work around all the challenges we face, like most families needing both partners to work. Why we would want to keep things the same as in the past I have no idea!!

My husband has not taken a sick leave day ever as far as I am aware. I feel that at the very least men should be entitled to use some of their available sick leave for paternity leave.

Yes, babies primarily need the mom, and are not dependent on dad at first. But what about mom? We work right up until the time we give birth, birth itself is often traumatic, we're thrown into the task of being a new mom, we're often faced with things like post-partum depression, sleep deprivation, etc, without much of a support system, have to go back to work ASAP as the family needs the finances. It would just be nice to have hubby at home a while longer while we weather the changes together. There is a lot that a dad can do to help and make the transition a smooth one in the early days, and to get family life off to a great start.

I am convinced that the negative comments on this board are from those who have either never had, or don't intend to have children, or are kidding themselves that they had the best experience, and are kidding themselves about the state of their relationship.

If companies like my own can be generous in how much maternity leave they give, I just see it as unfair how men are expected to go back to work immediately, like nothing has changed, with no acknowledgement of their role. So much for gender equality and all that. Yes, he can take his annual leave, but annual leave as far as I'm concerned is leisure time for rest and recuperation, not for family responsibility. Yes, having a baby is our decision, not the company's, but when companies claim to be people centred etc, you would kinda expect that they would honour family life in meaningful ways like this. A couple of extra days in lieu of sick leave for an event that will not be repeated many times hardly seems like much to ask for. A healthy balanced life afterall leads to a happy productive employee.

We work so damn hard and add value to our companies. A little time to enjoy our new addition together would be a really appreciated perk.

Thank you for listening! Good luck Revive on your mission. My husband tried to raise the issue with his company, but failed. I hope you do better! I would love to see the big companies stepping up!

P.S. Oh and yes the policy in the US is equally appalling. Then again, I prefer not to look to the US for how to do things properly. Europe however stands up time and time again. Good for them for leading the way on paternity benefits.



Thank you for this!! I have to say, my company I work seem to have the same kind out outlook they are trying to portray, but in reality its a different story. They are going on about how they are for their employees etc etc, but ja I will see what comes of all of this when we meet in Jan.

I know a few people will be supporting me, but due to the nature of work here...I think a lot will have a so what attitude as most replies seem to have here. Nevertheless, I will fight it and have a few people at the office supporting me, so thats good.

Agree with your point about Europe...they are leading the way!
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Guest
#87 Posted : Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:27:10 AM(UTC)
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In actual fact the Basic Conditions of Employment only provide for 3 days Family Responsibility leave, anything over and above that are at companies discretion. I'm in HR and it's sad to hear how HR departments are ridiculed for these policies. Don't shoot the messenger, we're just following procedure.
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#80 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:00:47 PM(UTC)
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manieverster wrote:
Revive and all the other new daddies/to be,
Who is giving birth to this child? You or your wife? You are just going to be in her way all the time. Or maybe not. Maybe you've got something else planned and just need a couple of days of! In my days there were no paternity leave. Anyway I couldn't wait to get to work in the morning to get away from dirty diaphers and bottles and that screaming! Wow, you dunno what you let yourself in for.


wow you sound sooo happy to be a parent, i feel sorry for your child with the attitude you have, i wouldnt even recommend a pet for you
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Revive
#88 Posted : Thursday, November 26, 2009 11:53:39 PM(UTC)
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Revive

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Couldnt have said it better myself! :P
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#89 Posted : Friday, November 27, 2009 1:25:58 PM(UTC)
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Revive I've read this thread from the start and I must say you are a very brave man to tackle this. I support this, because when I had my son my husband also got only 5days and I would have appreciated more. I stayed in hospital longer than I thought I would, but hubby had to take some annual leave. He helped a lot by changing diapers and let me sleep. So good luck and I hope you succeed.
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#90 Posted : Friday, December 04, 2009 1:19:05 PM(UTC)
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#91 Posted : Friday, December 04, 2009 1:20:08 PM(UTC)
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#92 Posted : Friday, December 04, 2009 1:31:10 PM(UTC)
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#93 Posted : Friday, December 04, 2009 1:39:26 PM(UTC)
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#94 Posted : Friday, December 04, 2009 2:12:47 PM(UTC)
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#95 Posted : Friday, December 18, 2009 3:28:33 PM(UTC)
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Hey Revive

Congrats on your expected arrival you big old Softie! I mean really, wanting to bond with a child at birth is just ridiculous. Just wait 20 years for them to have a meangful conversation with you and that should do it. Mind you, by then they won't want to know you, so you'll miss the whole bonding thing, shame. Maybe the next one, but only wait 16 years to have a conversation with them....hehehe...absolute idiots. My little girl is almost three now and there is nothing...and I do mean NOTHING more rewarding than coming home at night and have her throw her arms around me and yell "Daddy!!!" Well..sometimes pappa... I live in the UK and had a full two weeks paternity leave, paid. I wouldn't give it up for the world. In February, when my second comes, I'll take my two weeks paternity leave again. My wife will have her 9 months paid and possibly three months unpaid, which is just as important!

The following site gives you and idea of worldwide paternity leave...... http://www.nationmaster....al-leave-paid-paternity.

Good luck with your little one, have an absolute blast (including sleepless nights and nappies!) Fortunately for us, we will grow up with our children knowing us intimately...not in the good old days when dads were merely a figure...not a person!

Again, all the best. If I can help, let me know!
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craiglrx
#74 Posted : Friday, December 18, 2009 4:11:57 PM(UTC)
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Guest wrote:
You are pathetic and probabably just plain lazy for wanting to sit at home after your wife gave birth - surely beeing there every evening , mornings and weekends is more than enough ... what do you really want to do - sit and stare at the new baby all the time ? get a life and grow up you immature little wimp - every day millions are born - do you really want the world to come to a standstill due to your pathetic view on so-called paternity leave


I sincerely hope you get your paternity leave sorted...otherwise you might end up with Daddy issues like these...
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Revive
#96 Posted : Friday, December 18, 2009 5:58:39 PM(UTC)
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Revive

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Thanks! Its going well so far!! :d/

Totally agree...these "negative" responses...you can only assume they had a missing father figure or an inadequate father figure in their lives. Why else have the outlook that its a woman's job to look after a baby. Gotta feel sorry for their wives and kids. Shame man Brick wall

PS: Im still looking for details as per my first post. If you can help, its greatly appreciated!!
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craiglrx
#97 Posted : Friday, December 18, 2009 6:18:20 PM(UTC)
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I'll look into our company policy, however, it won't mean much as I'm in the UK. What I can tell you about progression is that they are now changing the paternity/maternity entitlement packages. Woman usually got 9 months paid and 3 months unpaid where fathers only got two weeks. Depending on the company, these two weeks would either be fully paid or 1 week paid in full and the other statutory paternity pay. The law is now changing so that couples will get a total of 1 year leave, so you can, in theory, take three months paid and your wife can take 6 months. You can split the whole year as you wish, unfortunately only 9 months will be paid...

Unfortunately I must add that I love living in a 1st world country. The year my wife had off with our first was invaluable and she is thoroughly looking forward to going on leave in January. Here it is not an issue at all, and yet in SA you still get people complaining about giving 2 weeks paternity leave above and beyond annual leave. It is thoroughly ridiculous.

I'll get our company policy for you and also the look for some of my older company policies.

Regards
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Revive
#98 Posted : Friday, December 18, 2009 11:56:49 PM(UTC)
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Thank you for this information. I totally agree, we really are "stuck here in SA. Having looked at what happens overseas and comparing...it's crazy. But its like comparing apples with lettuce? 2 very different things! Hopefully something change here soon. What better place to start than in your own work place. Hopefully...when more people atch on, things will start progressing!
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Revive
#99 Posted : Tuesday, January 12, 2010 11:15:14 AM(UTC)
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Revive

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Hi and best for the World Cup Year!

This will most likely be the last week Im taking info on this. If anyone has some info to share in terms of Paternity leave and how much your company grants, please let me know. I do need some proof in black and white, so it your can email me the document, or part thereof and let me know what company you work for, that will be great.

Will be submitting my request to increase paternity leave at our company end next week. Lets hope it goes well! :d/
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