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Visitation Rights for children living on maintenance
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#1 Posted : Friday, November 20, 2009 12:14:17 PM(UTC)
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I m a SA male of 34 yrs. I live in Pretoria and have a 2yr daughter by a woman living 500 km away in Mpumalanga. I am paying maintenance for my child but i find it difficult to see and let my child visit me and my family in Pretoria. What dos the law say on matters such as my case above?
Fathers 4 Justice
#2 Posted : Friday, November 20, 2009 2:20:25 PM(UTC)
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If you were to take the normal legal route, you may have been marginally more successful if you had brought an urgent application prohibiting the mother from removing the child from Pretoria, and compelling here to pick up the costs to maintain contact and a relationship with your daughter.
Unfortunately because of a life changing decision that the mother of your daughter has made and that you had no decision making part of and or your formally written consent you are now being unreasonably and unnecessarily burdened to pick up the cost for somebody else’s life choice / decision.
As F4J we are vehemently apposed to one parent unilaterally making decisions that negetivly impact the relationship between the other parent and the child on an emotional, spiritual, psychological and financial level. In the vast majority of these cases like yourself it is done with malicious spiteful intent, and is most certainly never done in the childes best interest. Very simply put this is child abuse
As it currently stands - Unfortunately there is very little that you can do. In this instance the law is not on your side. It would involve a very expensive, protracted high court application demanding that your child be returned to the area in which you live. The likely hood of success would depend on how much money and time you are prepared to throw at the matter. You would be looking at legal expenses in excess of R 600 000.00 and an approximately 5 year legal battle with no guarantee of an outcome in your favour. The law in these instances primary desire is to destroy sever and alienate a parent from the child. This is truly not in the best interest of the child.
Alternatively what you could do is approach one of the universities law clinics (approach WITS law clinic they are good with this kind of thing) and ask them to assist you to do a high court application Pro Bono. The desired outcome will be that your child is
1. Returned to Pretoria
2. Placed in your care
3. The mother to foot the bill of maintain contact
4. The mother to pay maintenance to you
5. To set a land mark legal precedent.
parent24ed
#3 Posted : Friday, November 20, 2009 2:24:40 PM(UTC)
parent24ed

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Hi F4J - That is so helpful and interesting, thanks very much for taking the time to give such a thoughtful answer.
Michael
#4 Posted : Monday, November 23, 2009 3:41:17 PM(UTC)
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The advice F4J give to you is rather far from the original question you posed. Nowhere did you say you wanted custody etc, you merely wanted advice on how you can bridge the issue regarding access. The local magistrate court processes are helpful in that you can (free of charge) apply for access to visitation to your children and sometimes, even the maintenance officer offers advice to help you. Your ex-partner will be summoned to court and there you can tell your side of the story. Maybe there is a middleground between you and your ex to solve? Rather than make it a court battle?
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#6 Posted : Monday, November 23, 2009 3:48:34 PM(UTC)
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@Fathers 4 Justice - you seem on quite a mission! He never said that they all lived in Pretoria to begin with. You seem to have a lot of anger probably from whatever happened to you. But don't judge every mother - some of us do the best and ENCOURAGE the visitation and contact...but sometimes the father just couldn't give a toss! So don't judge until you know the entire story- BOTH sides!
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#9 Posted : Monday, November 23, 2009 3:51:30 PM(UTC)
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I doubt that the courts will ever force the mother to move back to PTA - do not even bother with that one, in your case the child is 2 years old which make it extremely difficult to have removal access, specially 500 km away.
It does not have to be a 5 year battle that cost R500 000, I know in some cases fathers has spend that kind of money and still doe not have access, like in your case I doubt that you will get removal access if you do get it might only be for day time removal, there is no reason why you should have supervised access, unless you have a track record of violence, drugs ect which has to be proof in court.
The courts are a bit biased towards fathers and yes the courts give some fathers custody that is under 2 years old, I got custody when my son was 18 months and my girl 4 years old and yes my ex also tried everything in the book to get custody which led to me having to move 1400km away to protect me and the children, if our justice system was not so biased then this drastic move would not have to happen, but there is not much protection for fathers in our country.

An urgent application done using advocate and attorney which is not a trial could cost you about R50 000, this could force the mother to allow you removal access, I will ask for removal access to your place in PTA, but build in extra measures in case that fail, use a good attorney that specialize in family law or preferably a good advocate which your attorney should get, but you still has the right to ask for a different advocate than the one that your attorney use.
Build in things like she has to pay the traveling cost or at least half of it, you can have your child for at least 1 week every holiday until the child reaches the age of 5 then you can have the child for 1 long and 1 short holiday, parents should alternate easter and festive season, you have removal access every second weekend or at least day removal until the age reaches the age of 5, access should be overseen by a psychologist or a social worker just in case the mother refuse access of make up stories which usually is the case.

I can still give you tons of info, I suggest to read the divorce forum on healt24 for more info, there are a lot of other fathers in the same boat as you.
Guest
#10 Posted : Monday, November 23, 2009 4:01:00 PM(UTC)
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Hi, I am a 48 year old farther with three kids, my ex-wife held my children from me for 9 years when my smallest was only 5 years old and this was against a court order, you cannot beat them if a mother wants to hold the kids from you, the only thing on your side is time.
Now I see them were and when I like, your kids will always be your kids, just do the correct thing and pay maintenance and if you can pay more, don't' hold back money from them just because you cant see them, just keep trying, dont give up, one day your kids will come back to you, and one day, DAD will be DAD, this I tell you from an experience that I wish on no one.
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#11 Posted : Monday, November 23, 2009 4:16:55 PM(UTC)
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I can say that R600 000 is the true figure if you dont have the money you not going to win I had custody but ran out of money and 4 years later still paying through my ears off on this amount plus 15% interest every year added.. .. plus I dont get to see my child anymore although I have visitation rights but because he had the money I did not I could not "buy" my child custody back .. it sad that children get used and that JUSTICE and LAW is two things .. not bitter but they should look at the impact this have on families how they do these cases. Tried the Law clinics they only allow you to make use of them if you income is R2000 less .. if you earn more than that sorry the bill is for you own account. You will only be able to see her for a one night sleep over when she is 3 years old.. then it should be relooked at later at that time to see if she is coping with being away from her mother.. dont act selfish think of your child’s wellbeing often parents forget about the child in fights like this.. this is why I chose to walk away did not want my child to pull in two just to proof my point of have my way.. yes maybe it’s called child abuse but when they that small it easier for them to adapt have a normal childhood and have a full life until such time when you can make contact if you lucky they would want to see you that is..
Guest
#12 Posted : Monday, November 23, 2009 4:19:44 PM(UTC)
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Just be a good dad, make and effort to see your child and the mother will come round. Trust me.
I am a mother and I had to move far away because of money issues, one being the dad not paying his maintenance.
I will never keep my daughter away from her dad, but all I ask is for every step I take please take a step as well.
There are so many dad's out there that makes out to be such victims and I believe some are but as a rule, single mothers have a very tough job on their hands with dad's playing the victim all the time.
Good luck, and follow my advise, make an effort, you will be surprised to see how our attitudes change.
Numzi
#13 Posted : Monday, November 23, 2009 4:25:40 PM(UTC)
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I have a similar problem. Was not married, so am seen as unwed father. I have been paying maintenance for my son for the past 9 years like clockwork and still she does not allow me any access to my son.

The law needs to change to allow for people like me, but the chances are that if it does change, my little boy will be little no longer.
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#14 Posted : Monday, November 23, 2009 4:29:50 PM(UTC)
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The mom and dad's arnt the victims, the kids are
Guest
#15 Posted : Monday, November 23, 2009 4:35:42 PM(UTC)
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I had 3 years of courd battls and over R 800.000, I wone and still I lost, I could not get access to my children, all I could do was wate for time to pass and my kids get older, they will make up their own minds
Zee
#16 Posted : Monday, November 23, 2009 4:58:35 PM(UTC)
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This is the same case as mine. It took me 3 years to finaly have access, which includes removing the child for weekend. It is always difficult when the child is less than 5 years old. My child is still 650km away from my house, but I always say it worth it. I drive almost every two months to visit. She is now 5yrs. Sometimes police are involved since my ex is in the US and her mother (my child's grandmother) would refuse. She was arrested twice and promised her that this coming holiday I will have her charged if she removes or denies me a chance to remove my child for christma.
Zee
#17 Posted : Monday, November 23, 2009 5:12:12 PM(UTC)
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If you are interested I can give you the contact number of my lawyer. It cost me R35000 for the access. Nice thing is that it includes having to alternate for each school holiday. Call me on 011 546 1407.
Mickey
#18 Posted : Monday, November 23, 2009 5:25:34 PM(UTC)
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If you are on speaking terms with your ex - And if you have a support where you live - Maybe you can do holidays - FOr e.g - Take the two year old for two weeks every three months or so - But that means travel there to fetch her and take her back. But if your ex is a good mother and has good support where she lives -there is not much that you can do at the moment especially as the child is so young. When the child is older then school holidays will be your best bet.
Michael
#19 Posted : Monday, November 23, 2009 5:33:05 PM(UTC)
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Just a reminder that maintenance and access are defined seperately in the Family Act. Maintenance does not necessarily mean access, or the other way round. My ex does not pay maintenance for my 2 daughters but spends thousands on tummy tucks and b@@b jobs and I still allow her access visits with my children. Yes, I can get upset and throw a tantrum about it, but that would add no value to my life. My children know that she has money but chooses not to part with it for them. They are 16 and 12 years old now and know the meaning of selfishness. Despite this they go to her on every second sunday for a couple of hours and this has become a learning experience for them. Had I objected to the visitation they might one day have blamed me for forcing a seperation (over money), but for me accepting that she has not contributed financially but still let them go, they, as girls, will learn that you don't depend on other peoples money or that selfishness does not beget selfishness. Heaven only knows the other great learning they take from this episode. Children are not oblivious through this process.
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#21 Posted : Monday, November 23, 2009 6:11:58 PM(UTC)
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To F4J....thank you for the helpful response...what happens when the father is not interested in the kids and you are struggling to raise them on your own as his not paying anything towards the kids, does it still mean that its child abuse to move to another city and what are my rights as a mother? How do I go about getting him to pay maintenance?

Thank you.
Guest
#25 Posted : Monday, November 23, 2009 6:22:12 PM(UTC)
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I think for every situation it is very different. My husband is an amazing father and hasalways put the interest of his kids first however his ex wife seems to think that their daughter not growing up with her father is her best interest.

We have been told numerous times by the court that visitation and maintenance are two separeat things which we fully understand. Even thouth we havent seen my step daughter in 7 months we will never hold back the maintenance. We just pray every day that she will eventually grow up and choose to see her dad.

To all mothers out there, dont keep your kids away from their fathers, kids need their dads and to all dads be there for your kids and pay regardless how you may feel for the mother.
Guest
#26 Posted : Monday, November 23, 2009 6:28:57 PM(UTC)
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If my ex had custody and she left to work in the US leaving my child with her mother, I will instantly file for custody.
The legal cost does not have to be R500K or more, in the case where there is a custody battle it can end up to that amount, I think the original question was about access to the child, in such case it could start at R20 000, but to be safe use a figure of R50K, the best way would be to keep your side clean if the child live in Nelspruit in the past PTA high court had jurisdiction I do not know if it is still the case, but worth trying it any way, try and source Mrs E van Olst and ask that adv Mark Haskins represent you in court. First force your access, once the courts have made the order in your favor then if she refuse you access, I will still make sure that I involve a social worker or psychologist, this way you can have proof of your access which you can use in court, if she refuse you access more than twice in a row then you have grounds with the reports from the social worker or psychologist to charge her with contempt it will be difficult to explain her out of this, if found guilty she will get a six month prison sentence suspended for 5 years, I know of a couple of cases like this and believe me the problems stop there and then.
I have custody of both my kids my ex wife has gone as far as to lay false sexual abuse charges, she even requested a children court investigation, even gone as far as getting strings pulled by the chief public prosecuter where sister work to get a report stating that I have sexually abused my daughter, well if I let it be I am sure I would have been in jail today and had no access to my kids, her plan back fired I moved 1400 km away from her and the high court removed her access, this mean she can only see the kids under supervision. This type of allegations if not true can cause the same amount of damage to a child as if it was true, the law should change in such case if the mother only make allegations like that to get back at the father that she get a six month prison sentence, this way there will be more justice for fathers, I am extremely lucky and I only have God to thank, other unfortunate fathers is not so lucky and I know of some who has spend R600k out of stupidity, not prepared to follow good advice and got no where. The one that followed my advise settled saved a fortune and got access now with out a problem, his ex also tried the SAIDS (sexual allegation in divorce syndrome).
Guest
#27 Posted : Monday, November 23, 2009 7:17:10 PM(UTC)
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Dis nie net die pa’s wat gebukkend deur so ‘n gemors gaan nie. Ek is ‘n ma van 38 en het 3 kinders. Ons is nou al 5 jaar uit mekaar en nog nie geskei nie. Reg aan die begin het ek aansoek gedien vir ‘n Reël 43 wat my ‘n paar rand gekos het. Die Reël 43 is ‘n Hoëgeregshofbevel wat my toesig en beheer oor die kinders gegee het totdat ons geskei is. Om ‘n uiters lang en hardseer storie kort te maak, bly net die jongste vandag by my. Nie eens so ‘n bevel kon uitgevoer word nie, tensy beide ouers soos volwassenes optree en veral die kinders in ag neem nie. Die kinders is deur hel!!! My raad is dat kinders gelaat moet word sodat hulle kan aanpas en veral tot verhaal kan kom met dit wat gebeur het. Ek sien die twee oudstes nie so baie nie, maar die verhouding wat ek vandag met hulle het is iets beters as wat ek ooit voor kon hoop. Die koste en tou getrekery is nie die moeitewerd nie.
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